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06/06/2013

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Nostalgic

I'm having trouble with your statement that "...we don't have a fingerprinting analysis system sophisticated enough to simply run through all unsolved crimes and make matches, so that's not an applicable parallel to using DNA for random matching."

They seem quite similar to me, and currently limited ability to search and analyze the data doesn't seem relevant. If fingerprinting doesn't violate the 4th Amendment now, will it do so when we do have a comprehensive national database?

Dann

I was about to ask the same question as Ruth. But I did a DuckDuckGo on "fingerprint database search". The first few items suggest that such databases do exist, albeit with some errors due to data collection and/or the software used to process/search/match fingerprints.

We appear to be rapidly rushing towards the destruction of peaceful anonymity with the government recording our every action or inaction.

I'm not sure I like the idea of DNA swabs based on an arrest, but I don't see how it is dissimilar from any other form of biometric identification either in use or technologically possible.

I expect everyone to end up RFID chipped like pets with government transponders at spaced intervals to collect the data and programming to sift the data.

All for our own good, I'm sure....

Mike Peterson

The technical difference at the moment, as I understand it, is that the fingerprint-matching technology is better at taking a fingerprint from a crime scene and seeing if it matches the prints of a known criminal, but, when you ask "Does this match anybody at all?" you end up with a large number of possible matches which you then narrow down to likely people.

In other words, if you got X-number of names, you'd rule out the ones who were dead or incarcerated, then throw out the ones who are not anywhere near your location and that can give you a couple of people to check out. And maybe one of those is the guy you want, or maybe not, but you're not done even then.

What you can't do (yet) is toss a set of prints out into the system to see if they match any random crime scene print, and, especially, you can't expect to pull up a "yes, this is the guy" level match. With DNA, you can.

It's sort of like the difference between finding your way from a spot on the eastern slope of the Andes to the mouth of the Amazon, versus starting at the Atlantic and finding your way to a precise location in the mountains -- the branches, turns and options are far less inevitable and obvious going upstream than they were going downstream.

And, yes, once we get the technology to the point where you can use it for searches with no probable cause, then we'd need to consider the extent to which we allow prosecutors to go on fishing expeditions. Or, I guess we don't, since the court has said that anybody who has been arrested -- though technically innocent even of the crime for which they are suspected -- can be put through the full technical inquisition with absolutely no cause, probable or improbable.

And the RFID chips will come soon enough, Dann -- it's the only way to keep our children safe, don't you know? Won't someone please think of the children?????

Nostalgic

OK, I will keep thinking this over. At the moment, it seems that DNA's precision is the problem. But...but... argh!

The 4th amendment, and this is purely philosophical, seems based on the fact that much evidence is a question of interpretation. Somebody stole a rare gold coin. Authorities violate someone's rights by searching his home without cause, and find an identical coin, but there are still a gazilion unanswered questions. The presence of an identical coin doesn't mean he was ever at the crime scene, doesn't mean he stole it even if he was at the scene, doesn't mean it's the same coin, and if it is, doesn't mean he came by it by that way.

But DNA?? It incriminates/exonerates very accurately- tho possibly not 100%. But I am not hearing that the accuracy factor is the difference.

I realize my take sounds dangerously like "If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to hide." If the DNA has no match to other crimes, but turns up some personal info that the owner has the right to keep under wraps ... OK, there's an argument. Still thinking.

Owen

For the sake of accuracy, I do believe I saw the phrase "serious crimes," as predefined by the State of Maryland, not anyone who is arrested.

Mike Peterson

The point is, as stated in the dissent, that we were determined not to allow the doctrine of "well, he must be guilty of SOMETHING" to gain a foothold. And yet here we are.

Ponder it for a moment: Who might be guilty of something? A middleclass, middleaged white guy sitting watching the baseball game? Nah. How about the black kid hanging with his friends on the corner?

I've been hassled by the Chicago cops for having long hair, and, 40 years later, my hair is short but those checkerboard hats still make my gut wrench. I don't know what they do for people who didn't have the option of changing the thing they were being hassled over.

The Amendment is clear: You can't come in and just poke around hoping to find something. If you have a reason to be here, state it. Otherwise, bugger off.

Good principle. One of the best.

Beth Cravens

My problem is that it sets a precedent for future administrations. I may not have anything to hide now, but who's to know what a "serious" crime will be in the future. The saying is, give them and inch and they'll take a mile. The Patriot Act is proving that out.

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